Saturday, February 03, 2007

Immigration Part 2 - Another long one

I told you guys I could keep going on and on about this issue. This evening, I got a comment from a locked profile. I think locked profiles are unfair (and the mark of a coward), and so does Blogger, because when you click on the person's name, a message comes up saying that Blogger encourages unlocking your profile. How is it fair that she gets full access to my opinions over the last 3 years or so, and I can't read hers? So in response, I'm posting the comment and my rebuttal. And then I think I'll rant a little bit more.
Christina - you just have to look at this video to understand the HUGE problem we have in this country because we have left our southern border virtually wide open. It is not about racism. It is about preserving our American culture, our language and our country from being overrun by millions of people, most of whom are barely educated in their homeland.

Video

If you care about the illegal immigrants you should not wish for them to come here and be exploited and live in the shadows. You should wish for them to either have a better life in their homeland or be able to come here legally. But as a country we cannot take in every person who wants a better life. If we did that we would have no country left! There must be a limit and we have surpassed it. We take in more immigrants as a country than ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD COMBINED. Enough is enough!
My first concern is whether this person even read the numbers in my post. They're all cited and not made up. Did you guys miss the part where I said that $54.7 > $32.2? Ah well, I guess people can't read. But that doesn't stop me from typing. My second concern is that I think I made it abundantly clear that I do think that making immigration legal is the solution. I guess that was easily missed too.

So I looked at the video. I began this with hopes for objectivity anyway, and I welcome information from both sides of the fence. I have to say that nothing in the video was the earth-shattering raw data that would change my opinion. In fact, it was largely the same information I posted here last night. The only difference was that there was footage of this guy's speech which he gave to a highly sympathetic audience that would nod in approval or look shocked when confronted with the numbers I posted last night. He just didn't show any of the dollar figures. But he did make sure to have two token black people and one Asian person in the audience. We're a very diverse nation, after all. And they made sure to capture the black man nodding in stunned approval.

Everything in the video was true. The untruths in this video are not what it said, but the unspoken suggestions that it made. For instance, the speaker claims that immigrants between 1925 and 1965 assimilated quickly and did well in our economy due to a tight labor market. This creates the assumption in the audience that current immigrants do not assimilate quickly and do not do well because we do not have a dire need for their labor; a sentiment which is echoed by our anonymously profiled "Ruthiness" when she (or possibly he) said "It is about preserving our American culture, our language and our country from being overrun by millions of people, most of whom are barely educated in their homeland."

"Our" American culture and English language are important. So important that they become a tool for scaring people out of appreciating the positive impact immigrants have on our nation. So let's clear this one up right now. This quote comes from the Washington Post:

Only 7 percent of the children of Latino immigrants speak Spanish as a primary language, and virtually none of their children do. Just as they did a century ago, immigrants largely come knowing little English. But they learn, and their children use it as a primary language. The United States is not becoming a bilingual nation. The children of Latino immigrants do especially well at work. James P. Smith of Rand Corp. has shown that the children and grandchildren of Latino immigrants come very close to closing educational and income gaps with native whites. This is the same as it has always been in American immigration: Newcomers know what keeps them outside the mainstream and work hard to make sure that their children do better. Immigrant Latino men make about half of what native whites do; their grandsons earn about 78 percent of the salaries of their native white friends.[1]

Hmm. Someone's been telling you lies, Ruthy.

It's true. As a country, we can't take everyone in. But how many years of there not being jobs available for immigrants do you think it would take for immigrants to stop coming? Not many, I think. After the first few go home saying "Man, you really don't want to go to America...there are no jobs there for hard workers!" people would stop coming. The fact is, we employ them because we need them. Is it fair that people wait to come while others cross and get away with it? Absolutely not. We should open the doors. When immigration becomes more of a burden than a blessing to our economy, it will stop of its own accord.

The environment, however, is a problem. We're ruining it. The speaker in the video warns us solemnly that our grandchildren's future will be foreclosed if we keep allowing immigrants in the numbers we're receiving. Well, our granchildren are screwed, but not because of immigration. There won't be much environment waiting for them if we keep our current energy expenditures up. So Ruth, I'll make a deal with you. When you and every anti-immigration advocate stops driving cars and wasting water and electricity, and we have enough immigrants to manage the needed labor, I'll jump on your bandwagon, because we will have made the necessary changes of our own accord. Cut your fossil fuel expenditures by the approximately 5/7 that I have, and get all your friends to do it. Then I'll buy your concern for our lack of space and we can talk.

On to the bigger matter. Immigration, in my opinion, is a diversionary tactic. Our economy does have problems. We are heading into a downturn, but it won't be the immigrants' faults. We've allowed corporations to send jobs overseas. These corporations aren't paying appropriate taxes and Americans are actually losing the jobs that were sent offshore. The most recent figures I found say that $639 billion in corporate earnings should have been taxed at a rate of 35% in 2002, but they weren't. That represents a loss of $223 billion in taxes in 2002 - and that was an increase of 58% over 1999. So if you assume it increased by a steady amount during the next three years, we would have lost $354 billion in 2005 (which is almost 11x more than immigrants cost us annually.) But by all means, go after the small fish.

To anyone (even my friends) who makes the valid case that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes on money earned, my answer is two-fold. First, that money would be taxed if immigration were freely allowed; and second, each one of us should count the amount of untaxed income we've earned in our lifetimes. Let's take a hard look at our own lives before casting stones.

The last comment I have to make is that I do care about improving conditions in the third world. I understand that we can't solve their problems by bringing them all here. But thinking that the solution lies in sending aid only is naive. Our government's idea of sending aid usually comes in the form of an explosive. Our corporations' idea of sending aid is to build offshore sweatshop factories to exploit the poor. The best intentioned thing we can do is send aid personally. I have a close friend that opted to purchase a cow for a third world family instead of receiving Christmas gifts. That's probably one of the best ideas. I personally sponsor some third world child myself. What do you do? Americans can't let fears that their aid will be misused stop us from acting. We just need to remember that help cannot be found in incendiary devices and fences along borders.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100922.html

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think the big issue is the illegal bit. Like any other economic analysis, it's never simple or direct. Certain other things need to be taken into account. I haven't looked at hard numbers, but the following need to be kept in mind:

-As you stated, illegals don't pay taxes. I think the biggest prooblem here is that they tend to use taxpayer funded services such as emergency medical services and welfare
-Employers don't pay taxes on illegal workers. If they did, they'd lose the workers or have to charge more for the jobs they bid. I'm not sure if this is factored into what you read/cited or not
-Some corporations are at least in part responsible for the demand for illegals. Cheap labor is always appealing to the unscrupulous, so as long as there are people who are willing to go with the lowest bidder regardless of *why* the bid is lowest, we'll still have a problem.

They are partially correct in their issues with the drain on social services. It's a lot of money going out, and because it is a high visibility issue, other reasons tend to get brushed off as negligible.

Honestly, I think the real problem is population control. Numbers of people need to be controlled across the board, regardless of where they happen to be located. I would think that many third world countries would be helped by population reductions through limited procreation. But this is a tangential discussion to your chosen topic.

Oh, and regarding "locked" profiles: sometimes it just means that there is no blogger profile. Since Google owns blogger, and I have a Google account, I technically have a blogger profile that I never set up. So if you click on my name, it sends you to a so-called "locked" profile. I just try not to use it unless it's a form of spam control (such as on Steph's blog)

Christina said...

No, I agree (with both you guys). People suck and population's a problem and everyone's a hypocrite. I just want people to start caring about finding out the facts before they state an opinion. If you haven't looked at both sides, you don't have an opinion, you have propaganda. But Flint, like I said in my first post, if a person contributes more to the economy than they cost, the argument that they cost is mute. Immigrants funnel so many uncounted dollars into our economy but people are led to believe an entirely different concept.

Until the government starts regulating the internet, we can find out both sides of the story on just about anything, and I think everyone should take advantage of that as much as possible.

Anonymous said...

As I stated before, I haven't done extensive research into what money goes where. It is entirely possible that the amount of tax money that both immigrants and their employers do not pay is greater than the amount that they contribute elsewhere. i don't know if the money not spent by employers on benefits, taxes, and other worker related fees is accounted for in those figures.

And Dex is right - a lot of us don't necessarily care if they're making up for their own deficit or not. When it comes to public services, we don't want to pay for other people. We want to pay for the firemen and EMTs to be there when we need them, not when someone who makes no direct contribution to the services does. None of us want to support people on welfare who have no intention of rectifying their situation. I'm still pissed that I have to pay taxes for a social security system that will be dead by the time I'm eligible to use it. It should be going towards my retirement, not providing gas money for some a-hole's bus sized RV. But I digress too far...

To come back to the initial point. Yes, immigration laws should be changed. They should probably be clean cut and blunt - all or none. Either we don't want to deal with it, so we keep everyone out - none of this selective bullsh*t - or we let everyone in until there is no more room or demand. If we make them all legal, who can complain about what now? They're all documented, so they can be prosecuted for tax evasion. It will thin out some sleazy business practices, among other things. Yes, immigration laws suck as they stand. And, oddly enough, it can be almost as tough to get out of the country as it is to get in, depending on where you want to go, or what your job here was.

And moot (not mute) doesn't mean what you think it means.

Christina said...

I humbly accept that correction and would like to state that I've always hated that phrase, but it's become unavoidable. I'm going back to not using it.

On the contribution versus loss thing, I have to disagree with you. In one column, you've got income and in the other you've got expenditure. If one is greater than the other, then you either have a surplus or a deficit. You can't count the theoretical money that you could have made as a loss if the result of the equation is positive. Likewise, in the event of a deficit, you cannot boast of the existing income, because it didn't count at the end.

It's fairly easy to gauge the accuracy of the numbers given by the anti-immigration society. We can be assured that they are either accurate or overblown. They will have counted and re-counted every penny and inflated wherever they could to get as stunning a figure as possible. If the most cursory number I can come up with (without tallying anywhere near the other income that immigrants bring into the economy) exceeds the largest cost the adversaries of immigration can come up with, then you have a surplus; period. That figure didn't even count things like sales tax that immigrants in most states pay every time they buy something, or the repeated positive effects that their purchases have on the economy. The taxes immigrants pay do cover the social benefits they use, because they bring in more than they cost. Did you read part one? Part of the hazard with long double posts is that information can easily be missed.

But I do agree that it should either be illegal or legal to emigrate. Either we have a population problem or we don't. Period. I can only see an exception in the case of refugees if we were to just make it illegal to come here. I still think that if there weren't a need for immigrants, we wouldn't have illegal immigration. Who wants to go somewhere that has no opportunity? That's not how immigration works.

Besides, what I didn't want to get into in my first posts is the fact that arguing over a person's right to come here is to assume that you have a right to be here in the first place. That assumption is false in my opinion. It's undeserved entitlement.

Christina said...

I'd say that's a great idea, but weigh all your options carefully. Learning a new language is tough, but those European nations are where it's at as far as, well, everything goes. Canada's likely to be poisoned by our philosophies more and more. They're even having problems paying for their healthcare system, but Amsterdam will probably be under water in our lifetimes. I'd probably consider moving slightly inland in England, or to Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, or Germany. Did you know that Germans by law get a minimum of 20 days vacation per year? They're not allowed to work on Sundays or to work overtime, and state holidays are mandatory days off. I don't know why the hell the immigrants are coming here. If I were them, I'd move here just to save up the money for a flight to Germany.

Flint said...

I'm not trying to combine theoretical and "real" monies. I'm just wondering if they are including both direct (taxes the immigrant themselves should pay, purchases they make, etc.) and indirect (employee taxes that employers have to pay, benefits that employers have to pay for, etc.) inflows and outflows in their studies. Most of these things aren't nearly as thorough as they claim to be, because they stop as soon is their point is made for fear of countering it farther along. And sadly, sales tax is typically general fund money, which means it goes to the pork barrel project with the strongest political backing, and not to where it actually needs to go, so it doesn't really pay for the public services used. Oddly enough, property tax is a lot of it (schools, fire districts, hospital districts, etc.), so this whole issue may be completely irrelevant anyway. Except maybe welfare, which in its current form is a complete bullsh*t system anyway, pardon my expletive.

Switching tracks, most European countries have lengthy mandatory time off. Hell, we recently became the most overworked industrialized nation in the world. Don't even get me started on how overworked we are, how bad we need a break, and our feeble attempts to cope with or combat it.

Personally, I think Scandinavian countries are the best off for living standards (Swedes supposedly average 32 days of vacation per year). Most EU countries have work restrictions to improve family and social life, realizing that productivity isn't just numbers. Still, so long as we're ruled by corporations and the all-mighty dollar (yes, your real president has been dead for nearly 200 years), I hold minimal hope for improvement. So far as climate goes, I hear that England is pretty comparable to up here, so I'd probably go to Wales or western England proper myself. Visit London, sure. But definitely not live there. I'm already ashamed of my president, so we're just adding up more reasons to get the hell out of here.

And someone tell Dex that he sucks because a) he restricts posts on his blog to other blogger users (if he'd upgrade his blog, I could use my Google account), and b) he's going to make me catch him in Portland if I want to harass him in person a bit. He needs to come up here so we can get Kimi out of hiding.

Christina said...

You may be right about the negative numbers not being as high as they should be. I still doubt it. I just think that the fact of immigration leads us to both the explanation and the solution.

And I saw those numbers earlier this week at work. Those numbers take into account all sorts of things, so they're different from the chart I saw, which measured only actual days off, by day. Italy was the leader with an average of 42 days. What I want to know is why Americans don't have employment rights, and what I can do to change that. I'm really tempted to just pick up my family and move to Europe, but I'm prevented from doing it for a lot of reasons. One reason in particular is that I don't think that running away is the way to solve anything. Change starts at home. I can't change the world, but I can try.

Watch the economy take its nose-dive and all of us be suddenly out of jobs. Then we'll have plenty of vacation time.

Steph said...

Too tired to read through will read later but did notice the comment about encouraging them to have a better life in their own country...all I can say is huh? Last I heard people run from things they don't like and to places they know will be better.

My whole take on it...just pay the taxes too and you're in.

Oh yeah, last I heard there hasnt been any huge terrorist Mexicans coming up here. No, they just want to work the jobs that we are too hoity toity to work.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I just upgraded and didn't do any account changes yet. I'll fix it soon, maybe later. And Christina, damn you to hell for reminding me that Amsterdam will someday be pontoon city. I think all of Holland will be underwater soon enough. My backup move is either scandinavia or the iberian peninsula. I say let 'em all in, tax the shit out of them, fatten them up with pizza and burgers while watching commercials of pizza and burgers, and bitch about them more. I think the only solution is, oddly enough, the Nazi approach. Sterilize people at birth, then only qualified individuals be allowed to breed. I know I would be excluded from the procreation club, but I'm perfectly fine with that. We do it to animals, why not ourselves?

Christina said...

Heck yeah, to the both of you.

Anonymous said...

One big pro for working for the government, and in infrastructure in particular - there will always be work. In fact, if the economy crashes, there will be even more work, as public jobs pick up to try and compensate for the loss of private jobs (referring to construction/repair in particular). I suggest you all become civil engineers.

I wonder how hard it is to get a similar job across the pond...

Jorge said...

I dont know why this is such a national threat, I like your your numbers Christina and I appreciate your support in this matter for the Immigrants. I sure wish this could be taken care of at the state level. I am not sure how this "problem" affects people in Maine or Alaska?

Christina said...

Oh well, if you would just read the racist websites, you would know that this "masssive problem" affects everyone, whether or not your state sees any immigration.

For pete's sake, I wonder how people are so easily duped when the internet's right here for us. Anyway, of course I support you guys, because I firmly believe that it's all just "we." I'm an immigrant here too, really. It doesn't matter that the American quarter of my gene pool goes back to the revolutionary war, that ancestor was still an illegal immigrant.

Christina said...

And Flint, anyone with a useful skill set who is willing to work can get a job anywhere in the world (as long as governments stay out of it).

Christina said...

I think people are just lazy. It's easy to perform due diligence.
All you have to do is look at citations. Take me for example: most of my numbers come from places like the census bureau (or organizations that work with the census) the department of education, department of justice statistics, etc. Some numbers come from private firms and you can be sure that some of those firms (especially if they are think tanks) are liars, but most of their facts are also verifiable through respectable sources. So people just need to use some common sense. We're still enough of a democracy to be able to trust the U.S. Census Bureau to tell the truth. People are just too lazy to think for themselves.

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